Hodlandwin69
Regular
Compensation claims through courts typically end up less than the initial claim
AVZ Discussion 2022
- Thread starter GazDix
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Compensation claims through courts typically end up less than the initial claim
Got ya knickers in a knot there Timbo! AVZ has the golden nugget and can also say no to any offers it considers low ball. Glass can be half full or half empty!
This implies the glass is at 50% capacity. It isn't.
No amount of wishful thinking changes that. Apologies.
Again, if you had USD$10Bil would you buy 2xPLS or AVZ?
I'm not saying we are doomed, but anyone talking more than $A1.50 is retarded, has a tenuous grasp on reality or priming holders for disappointment.
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While I don't know how significant the CCP's influence/role in resolving these matters is atm, I think we should not ignore or discount it - they are still live actors with an significant iron in the fire (for them). They still pull a lot of political strings in the DRC. Who knows, it could benefit their interests to play a clandestine subversive role by supporting Rwandan forces to distract American attention/forces from elsewhere - just don't make any assumptions or put anything past anybody. If Zinjin/CCP could be severely weakened would be a huge benefit in weakening the DRC hand -> hence the important role of the ICSID. But there's so much at stake for the CCP to just walk away from this game (including face) given their growing presence in Africa, it could be a key/strategic inflection point - so it could take some pretty hard knocking together of heads to get it sorted. Will the ICSID provide this - I don't know. It could require a coordinated strategic combination of timed hits against DRC/CCP players to get things moving. DRC/CCP players will exploit any & every weakness or chink they can find, including running down our finances etc
(I'm another long-time AVZ holder that's been watching quietly from the sidelines)
While it's disappointing that the DRC govt failed to engage meaningfully with AVZ during the ICSID hiatus, it does not necessarily mean that AVZ is in a worse position than a month ago.
Surprisingly, AVZ has a get-out-of-jail-free card, which is dependent on the minerals-for-peace deal getting signed-off.
Although unlikely, but should the ICSID arbitration go all the way to the award phase, the peace deal brings into play avenues for AVZ to enforce both ICC and ICSID awards and penalty payments from the DRC.
As we are are all well aware, both the USA and DRC are signatories to the ICSID Convention established in 1966. AVZ can enforce awards and penalties through Article 54 of the Convention, which mandates member states to treat ICSID awards as binding and enforceable like domestic court judgments.
With this in mind, any payments and mining royalties made to the DRC will originate in the USA and be in $US (the currency of international trade). This means that AVZ can seek US court enforcement for the interception and seizure of these payments to satisfy the awards. This will deprive the DRC of any revenue and value from its copper and cobalt mines within the peace for minerals deal.
I sincerely hope that the DRC's many layers of legal eagles advise the govt about this risk, and that it would be wise to negotiate rather than obfuscate. The alternative for the DRC could rather bleak.
Cheers
F
Surprisingly, AVZ has a get-out-of-jail-free card, which is dependent on the minerals-for-peace deal getting signed-off.
Although unlikely, but should the ICSID arbitration go all the way to the award phase, the peace deal brings into play avenues for AVZ to enforce both ICC and ICSID awards and penalty payments from the DRC.
As we are are all well aware, both the USA and DRC are signatories to the ICSID Convention established in 1966. AVZ can enforce awards and penalties through Article 54 of the Convention, which mandates member states to treat ICSID awards as binding and enforceable like domestic court judgments.
With this in mind, any payments and mining royalties made to the DRC will originate in the USA and be in $US (the currency of international trade). This means that AVZ can seek US court enforcement for the interception and seizure of these payments to satisfy the awards. This will deprive the DRC of any revenue and value from its copper and cobalt mines within the peace for minerals deal.
I sincerely hope that the DRC's many layers of legal eagles advise the govt about this risk, and that it would be wise to negotiate rather than obfuscate. The alternative for the DRC could rather bleak.
Cheers
F
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Lithium de Manono : AVZ relance l’offensive judiciaire, l’offre de KoBold fragilisée
La procédure d’arbitrage engagée par AVZ Minerals Limited contre la République démocratique du Congo (RDC) devant le Centre international pour le règlement des différends relatifs aux investissements (CIRDI), au sujet du gisement de lithium de Manono, « va maintenant reprendre », annonce la...
Winenut
GO AVZ!!!!
Lithium de Manono : AVZ relance l’offensive judiciaire, l’offre de KoBold fragilisée
La procédure d’arbitrage engagée par AVZ Minerals Limited contre la République démocratique du Congo (RDC) devant le Centre international pour le règlement des différends relatifs aux investissements (CIRDI), au sujet du gisement de lithium de Manono, « va maintenant reprendre », annonce la...bankable.africa
View attachment 87584
Translation here peeps:
Manono's lithium: AVZ relaunches the judicial offensive, KoBold's offer weakened
Creation date: Tuesday, June 24, 2025 09:14
Date modified: June 24, 2025 15:52
The arbitration proceedings initiated by AVZ Minerals Limited against the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) before the International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (CIRDI), regarding the Manono lithium deposit, "will now resume", the Australian company announced in a statement released on June 24, 2025.
By announcing, on May 26, the freezing of the procedure until June 23, AVZ had indicated that this decision aimed to create "a climate conducive to discussions" that could lead to an amicable settlement of the dispute. "Despite the efforts made by AVZ, the DRC has not engaged in dialogue during this period of temporary suspension, which has now expired," accuses the company.
For the moment, the Congolese authorities have not commented on the file. It is therefore unknown why the discussions were not successful, while the CIRDI had confirmed that the procedure had been suspended "in accordance with the agreement of the parties".
KoBold in trouble
One thing is certain: the resumption of legal proceedings weakens the offer of KoBold made to the Congolese authorities on January 21, 2025. The American company, supported by investors such as Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, proposes to end the dispute by granting "appropriate compensation" to AVZ, in exchange for abandoning its claims to Manono for its benefit. In this perspective, AVZ and KoBold announced on May 6 the conclusion of a framework agreement providing that "AVZ sells its commercial interests in the Manono lithium deposit to KoBold, at a fair value".
Except that for this operation to succeed, the Congolese State must agree to grant AVZ an exploitation permit or, failing that, recognise it rights to the deposit. What Kinshasa refuses, hence the procedure launched in June 2023 before CIRDI.
AVZ claims rights to the part of the Manono lithium deposit covered by the PR 13359 Exploration Permit. But the Congolese justice returned 100% of the stake in this license to the Congolese mining company (Cominière), when it was initially owned by a joint venture controlled by the Australian company, in partnership with the public company.
American Godfather
Subsequently, Cominière partnered with the Chinese group Zijin Mining to create Manono Lithium SAS. The joint venture, 61% owned by Zijin (through its subsidiary Jinxiang Lithium) and 39% by Cominière, has obtained an operating permit for the northeastern part of the deposit and plans to start lithium production in the first quarter of 2026.
AVZ is therefore also suing its former partner Cominière before the International Court of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce, where the Australian company has already obtained the conviction of the public company to pay 39.1 million euros in penalties for non-compliance with injunctions.
AVZ specifies that the suspension of the arbitration proceedings was decided "following a call from the United States government encouraging the parties to take measures to establish a climate conducive to discussions". These negotiations are part of a particular diplomatic context. Washington is parallelly conducting talks with Kinshasa for a strategic "minerals against security" agreement, which would aim to pacify the east of the country in exchange for preferential conditions for American investors in the mining sector, while facilitating a peace agreement between the DRC and Rwanda. While the signing of these two agreements is announced for the end of the month, the DRC's posture in the AVZ–KoBold file intrigues.
Pierre Mukoko
Read also:
Manono's Lithium: AVZ freezes its dispute with the State to facilitate the offer of KoBold
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Scoota30
Regular
Anyone in the market to buy AVZ outside of China will do it on the condition that the ML is returned back to AVZ and then onsold. This (almost) makes the jurisdiction risk a non-issue as they will have the backing of the US government. Anyone talking below $1.50 has rocks in their head IMO, if any smart businessperson had the option to buy AVZ with US backing or 2x PLS they would buy the money printing machine every day. That's not even mentioning that PLS isn't in the market to sell and the US wants critical minerals NOW.
The 6.2b USD claim at ICSID equals 9.5b AUD, roughly ~$2.7 AUD per share (not including damages, just the asset price) and you think anyone that is talking over $1.50 is retarded? That's an 80% premium!
All court cases are clear cut so far and the arbitrators won't look to the DRC actions so far with a smile on their face. It isn't like we don't have that much of a leg to stand on.
I don't understand why everyone thinks we still don't hold the cards? Kobolds screaming from the rooftops that they want us to be paid fair value (not an 80% premium) for a deposit that's going to make them rich for multiple decades.
cruiser51
Top 20
From fortunehunter on HC
discoveryalert.com.au
AVZ Minerals Resumes Arbitration Against DRC Over Manono Lithium Project
AVZ Minerals resumes arbitration against DRC over disputed Manono lithium project rights after failed settlement talks.
"With the signing of these two agreements(peace/security) announced for the end of the month, the DRC's position in the AVZ–KoBold case is intriguing."Lithium de Manono : AVZ relance l’offensive judiciaire, l’offre de KoBold fragilisée
La procédure d’arbitrage engagée par AVZ Minerals Limited contre la République démocratique du Congo (RDC) devant le Centre international pour le règlement des différends relatifs aux investissements (CIRDI), au sujet du gisement de lithium de Manono, « va maintenant reprendre », annonce la...
View attachment 87584
If a deal was dead between Kobold /DRC you'd expect a leak or Kobold to make a statement . Is no news good news at this point? No AVZ =No Kobold .
My error re the following point ... too many Bingtangs.
"AVZ/DRC ICSID deferment was for 1 month rather than 1 week."
What I was thinking was rather than have the deferral ending one week after 15-Jun, the date on which the peace discussions became serious, it would have been better to specify a deferral end date of at least 1 month from 15-Jun. However, because AVZ/DRC only specified a deferral end date of 23-Jun, the too short deferral has created a problem. However, I am hopeful that the definitive peace agreement will be achieved on 27-Jun, after which this hiccup with the deferral being too short will be a minor incovenience that will be insignificant.
Regarding the following point, I posted a few weeks ago that FT is probably simply keeping his friends close and keeping his enemies closer.
"DRC appointed the ceo of Cominière as one of their advisors for the negotiations of minerals for security deal."
Winenut
GO AVZ!!!!
FT needed Celestin to explain to him how the brown paper bags would be working this time around....
Here we go again with people throwing out numbers for what they think we'll get.
That's all immaterial, we'll get told a number when the time comes.
I'm more interested in how that number arrives.
Variables include:
- What is the actual deal?
- If just taking over AVZ's interest in Manono, what is the sequencing of establishing PR, sale, proceeds transfer?
- Is a PR required, and will the DRC give that to the buyer, or to AVZ prior (fscking doubtful).
- Who are we talking to?
- Is a deal still in the works, and just waiting for peace accords etc to be signed
- What is the timing re: transfer of funds and ownership?
- How do we guarantee deals will be honoured?
- Is all the above crap, given it's a "non-binding framework" and we are going through ICSID to the end?
- Are there other suitors?
- Is CATH still holding up their part of the deal re: funding?
- How does this affect CATH, and what might they do?
I have my own thoughts on the above and the likelihood of each option. All of these are more important to be answered way before we get into the latest 10 page shitfight about whether any offer might be 20c or $3.50.
All I KNOW currently is:
- The DRC dont' care and don't want to talk
- ICSID has been delayed, and we don't know when they'll get in a courtroom.
- Geopolitical forces are at play, but we don't know to what extent.
- DRC, CCP and related parties will string this out as long as possible.
I DON'T know the timetable for ICSID, or any other deal, precursors for any deal, or what that deal is.
Aaaaaaand.....
$12.
That's all immaterial, we'll get told a number when the time comes.
I'm more interested in how that number arrives.
Variables include:
- What is the actual deal?
- If just taking over AVZ's interest in Manono, what is the sequencing of establishing PR, sale, proceeds transfer?
- Is a PR required, and will the DRC give that to the buyer, or to AVZ prior (fscking doubtful).
- Who are we talking to?
- Is a deal still in the works, and just waiting for peace accords etc to be signed
- What is the timing re: transfer of funds and ownership?
- How do we guarantee deals will be honoured?
- Is all the above crap, given it's a "non-binding framework" and we are going through ICSID to the end?
- Are there other suitors?
- Is CATH still holding up their part of the deal re: funding?
- How does this affect CATH, and what might they do?
I have my own thoughts on the above and the likelihood of each option. All of these are more important to be answered way before we get into the latest 10 page shitfight about whether any offer might be 20c or $3.50.
All I KNOW currently is:
- The DRC dont' care and don't want to talk
- ICSID has been delayed, and we don't know when they'll get in a courtroom.
- Geopolitical forces are at play, but we don't know to what extent.
- DRC, CCP and related parties will string this out as long as possible.
I DON'T know the timetable for ICSID, or any other deal, precursors for any deal, or what that deal is.
Aaaaaaand.....
$12.
Nice find @cruiser51 ....great article, everybody should read thatFrom fortunehunter on HC
AVZ Minerals Resumes Arbitration Against DRC Over Manono Lithium Project
AVZ Minerals resumes arbitration against DRC over disputed Manono lithium project rights after failed settlement talks.
Winenut
GO AVZ!!!!
Totally agree @hedrox
Great find by @cruiser51 and one of the most straight forward but comprehensive assessments of the AVZ situation that I have read anywhere
Mute22
Regular
Thought provoking post from Michael Potter on the Crapper:
Long time holder, but haven’t posted much on AVZ as I feel there are people ok here that do the heavy lifting against the Toilets of the world so my hats off to you.
Thought I’d bring a slightly diffeRent perspective to the table. Imo everything here has to do with timings. The peace agreement was sought to have the dotted line signed on the 15th of June. This was one of the conditions outlined in the Kobold document signed by AVZ for the purchase of assets to take place. In anticipation for this, AVZ then sought to take a 1 month pause (23 May - 23 June) to potentially clear the path for these proceedings once the peace agreement had been signed. Due to x/y/z factors the agreement was delayed until the 27th June. This then was obviously outside the window of the ICSID postponement. My gut feel is that they didn’t want to take another risk on further delays in signing and will continue on with the ICSID processings until the peace agreement has been signed with the US and for the negotiations with Kobold or another interested party to continue.
I am as keen as everyone else for a great result for SH and to end what feels like decades of sagas. I think we need to be patient and wait until the Peace agreement is signed (hopefully this friday) before continuing the speculation.
Long time holder, but haven’t posted much on AVZ as I feel there are people ok here that do the heavy lifting against the Toilets of the world so my hats off to you.
Thought I’d bring a slightly diffeRent perspective to the table. Imo everything here has to do with timings. The peace agreement was sought to have the dotted line signed on the 15th of June. This was one of the conditions outlined in the Kobold document signed by AVZ for the purchase of assets to take place. In anticipation for this, AVZ then sought to take a 1 month pause (23 May - 23 June) to potentially clear the path for these proceedings once the peace agreement had been signed. Due to x/y/z factors the agreement was delayed until the 27th June. This then was obviously outside the window of the ICSID postponement. My gut feel is that they didn’t want to take another risk on further delays in signing and will continue on with the ICSID processings until the peace agreement has been signed with the US and for the negotiations with Kobold or another interested party to continue.
I am as keen as everyone else for a great result for SH and to end what feels like decades of sagas. I think we need to be patient and wait until the Peace agreement is signed (hopefully this friday) before continuing the speculation.
Very informative article.
I like all the phrases used
"contract enforcement"
"investment protection"
"state intervention"
"investment secruity"
"resource governance"
"licence revocations"
"inherent uncertainty"
"enforcement remains inconsistent"
when the word "corruption" would have sufficed.
Winenut
GO AVZ!!!!
Fairly balanced there
And yes....again we wait for a deadline to be met (or not) and look for an announcement to then hopefully have "some" idea of next steps or timeframes or anything
Skar
Regular
I seriously doubt that would ever get through shareholder approval (I would vote hell no, to me PLS is worth at a minimum 15-20B). Dale Henderson likewise just bought another 750k shares.
Current short term over production of lithium and consequent market manipulation by China will yield the same results it did in 2021, there will not be enough exploration, expansion and new supply coming into the market to meet demand which will see a reactionary price spike projected 27-30, hopefully with the emergence of non-China supply chains thereafter, more down stream cacpacity and competition will mean china can't squeeze the price down and .
The major problem is AVZ is just too dam big for most to chew. LOM projections are what 20 years. To maximise the value of the measured resource of AVZ, on a 20 year LOM you would need a 40Mt mine. Thats insane!!! Thats the throughput of 8 PLS mines (once P1000 is online), for the POTENTIAL of 1 AVZ.
Keyword is potential. AVZ now is the equivalent of back when PLS was at ~30c preconstruction in 2016 or 2020 whenever that milestone was.
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